GPS Losing "Fix" issue
Below is information that Jon Vez shared with the e-mail group. It is being pasted at the "serious information point" following some fun bantering...
Diane was referring to an external GPS antenna for their Chartplotter. Eddie and I have been trying to resolve the ‘GPS losing Fix’ issue for quite a while. Fortunately Eddie and Diane were able to resolve their problem by relocating their external GPS antenna as Diane explained. *However*, they have an ‘E’ Series Chartplotter which has an external antenna. If you have a C-Series Chartplotter (C90W or C120) you have an internal antenna and if your GPS is installed on your binnacle, the internal antenna is already there.
I’ve been trying to find a resolution to this problem since last summer and have talked with Catalina, Nick Hayes and Raymarine. Without going into too much detail, let me try and summarize--
The Symptoms: The C90 will lose a fix intermittently. Many chartplotters will lose a fix occasionally due to interference, view of satellites etc. However the C90 loses a fix even when there are strong satellite signals. This is a minor annoyance when out for a day sail and not following a route. However, if you are following a route or heading to a Waypoint this becomes a much bigger problem. We have found that when we lose a fix while following a route, the route or the waypoint we are heading to becomes corrupt; to the point where we have to re-enter those WP’s or routes. Even turning the power off of the unit will not reset the route. If you are relying on the CP for navigating, this can become a serious problem. Moreover, if your CP is integrated with your Autopilot, you will no longer be able to track to a waypoint.
What’s Been Done to Date: When I first encountered this problem, I asked if others on this message board were experiencing a similar problem (see the message thread on the 355 site), and to my surprise many of you described the same issue. So I started with RM. They claimed that they have not gotten any documented complaints about this issue. I know that not to be the case since I know of several of you who have raised this with either RM or your dealer. When I registered my problem, I followed Ray Marine’s prescribed course of action—I did a factory reset, I sent them my firmware versions etc. It was determined that I should send the unit in for diagnosis. I did that in October. Since I live close by, I personally took it to their engineers. They diagnosed the unit and could not find a problem. However, they changed out the internal GPS and other internals just to see if this resolves the problem. Unfortunately I’m still on the hard and cannot test the unit for another few weeks.
For those of you who have access to your boat (yes, I’m quite jealous) and are experiencing these symptoms I would *urge* you to contact your Dealer (or whomever installed your electronics) and definitely register your issue with RM. These are very expensive units and should work as advertised.
Do NOT let anyone tell you that the problem may be caused by your bimini! This was suggested early on, but I spoke with some senior RM techs and they comfirmed that this is simply not the case. Additionally, you may be encouraged to install an external antenna. However at the cost of $300+ installation, this may not resolve anything because chances are the antenna will still be under your canvas. A Chartplotter at the binnacle of a sailboat provides as good a location as any for a GPS antenna.
Sorry for the long winded message, but this is one issue that I would really like to see get resolved.
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Brad Sclar added: I just talked to Raymarine live as well as submitting a support ticket on the GPS fix issue. The tech I talked to candidly admitted that other customers had the same complaints and that currently a possible fix is to deploy an external NMEA-ready GPS unit, such as the Raystar 125 Plus ($350) and disable the internal GPS on the C90W via menu settings.
The tech did tell me that the bimini, in addition to any other obstruction of the sky, could be the problem (thanks for the heads up, Jon), and I responded by saying that in a top of the line piece of electronic equipment, which the C90W is purported to be, that was not a satisfactory response. He more or less responded by saying “I’m sorry you feel that way, sir.”
Garmin sells a similar external NMEA GPS unit, the GPS 17x for $219, which is a considerable savings.
I expect the same response on the submitted ticket and will share that with y’all when it comes out. I believe that getting an external GPS unit will end up being the answer to this particular problem, and that if you’re going to be doing some sailing that will make heavy demands of the internal GPS you’d be well served to get an external unit.
Welcome to boat ownership! as they told me when faced with no alternative but to buy a $250 50W to two 25W converter for the dock pedestal.
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From Jon: Brad, Thanks for following up on this! There is quite a bit more information that I didn’t share as my already lengthy note would have been worse! So I’ll share these items as they are brought up.
As for the bimini—I went to the Newport Boat Show last fall and spoke with a RM tech (not the sales guy) and mentioned that the bimini obstruction was being used as an excuse. He brought me over to a C90 and showed me the active satellites. He said it was being run from the internal antenna and we were in a corrugated metal building! He said if we can get this strong of a signal in this building, then a bimini isn’t going to be the culprit. So that is where I got the rebuttal to this argument everytime I have heard it….seeing is believing…
As you said, for such a high end chartplotter that has a selling point of an internal GPS, a piece of Sunbrella shouldn’t factor in. The Garmin’s certainly don’t have this problem (had one on my last boat).
As for the external antenna, my reluctance to this suggestion is will we be throwing good money after bad. Unfortunately the installation is quite involved because of the size of the fittings. Getting those up through the binnacle will be a painful boat project—and what if that isn’t the fix??
If it is a software problem (likely) then the clock is ticking since these are already being replaced by the newer models and RM has never been good about keeping old equipment up to date as far as firmware…
I haven’t spoken with a 355 owner yet who doesn’t have this problem (if you’re out there, please let us know), and as you said this becomes a dangerous issue in certain situations…if I didn’t have a boat full of RM gear and particularly Radar, the solution for me would be putting this thing on EBay and going back to a Garmin…
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From Brad: Hi Jon – you bet! Below is the web response – some interesting stuff! In other words, RM is telling us to make sure the latest software is installed, and to put a GPS sensor with an unobstructed view of the sky, and to back up your waypoints/tracks to CF, and otherwise ye walk the plank, matey!
I will ask what CF they recommend, and what size.
MFD = multifunction device.
CF = compact flash memory.
Customer By Web Form (Brad Sclar) 04/06/2012 03:00 PM
The main issue is that the C90W will lose it's GPS fix. Please advise on how to address that problem.
Thank you.
Raymarine Reply:
The currently installed version of software within the MFD is specified within the MFD's legal disclaimer which must be acknowledged each that the MFD is powered on. If not presently operating with v2.20 C-Series Widescreen MFD software (MENU->SYSTEM DIAGNOSTICS->SOFTWARE SERVICES->UNIT INFO->APP VERSION), then it is strongly recommended that the MFD's software be upgraded to v2.20, as the software release featured a software update to the MFD's internal GPS sensor. Raymarine software updates are cumulative in nature. As such, one need only install the latest software update to enjoy the new features, feature enhancements, and feature modifications of previous software updates. Please see the FAQ at the end of this response addressing v2.20 C-Series Widescreen MFD software.
Raymarine's MFD's are designed to be easily updated using one's computer, a CF memory card reader, and a SanDisk brand CF memory card. Raymarine posts MFD software updates on its Customer Support web site ( http://www.raymarine.com/default.aspx?site=1&SECTION=3 ) and recommends that customers ensure that their products have been updated with the latest available software (http://www.raymarine.com/default.aspx?site=1&SECTION=3 ). Should one not already possess a CF memory which is compatible with one's MFD, then it is strongly recommended that the memory card be purchased, as the same CF memory card may not only be used in conjunction with any future software updates, but may also be used to back up one's waypoint/route/track data which is recommended practice to avoid accidental loss of this data.
Should the MFD presently be operating with v2.20 C-Series Widescreen MFD software, then please check whether the MFD has been installed beneath a bimini top or hard top. It is not uncommon for a bimini to cause interference with a C-Series Widescreen MFD's GPS reception. Should the installation location prevent the MFD from receiving a reliable GPS position FIX via its internal GPS sensor, then the MFD should be interface to an externally located Raystar 125 Plus GPS Sensor which would be installed in a location where it would have an unobstructed view of the skies overhead.
Diane was referring to an external GPS antenna for their Chartplotter. Eddie and I have been trying to resolve the ‘GPS losing Fix’ issue for quite a while. Fortunately Eddie and Diane were able to resolve their problem by relocating their external GPS antenna as Diane explained. *However*, they have an ‘E’ Series Chartplotter which has an external antenna. If you have a C-Series Chartplotter (C90W or C120) you have an internal antenna and if your GPS is installed on your binnacle, the internal antenna is already there.
I’ve been trying to find a resolution to this problem since last summer and have talked with Catalina, Nick Hayes and Raymarine. Without going into too much detail, let me try and summarize--
The Symptoms: The C90 will lose a fix intermittently. Many chartplotters will lose a fix occasionally due to interference, view of satellites etc. However the C90 loses a fix even when there are strong satellite signals. This is a minor annoyance when out for a day sail and not following a route. However, if you are following a route or heading to a Waypoint this becomes a much bigger problem. We have found that when we lose a fix while following a route, the route or the waypoint we are heading to becomes corrupt; to the point where we have to re-enter those WP’s or routes. Even turning the power off of the unit will not reset the route. If you are relying on the CP for navigating, this can become a serious problem. Moreover, if your CP is integrated with your Autopilot, you will no longer be able to track to a waypoint.
What’s Been Done to Date: When I first encountered this problem, I asked if others on this message board were experiencing a similar problem (see the message thread on the 355 site), and to my surprise many of you described the same issue. So I started with RM. They claimed that they have not gotten any documented complaints about this issue. I know that not to be the case since I know of several of you who have raised this with either RM or your dealer. When I registered my problem, I followed Ray Marine’s prescribed course of action—I did a factory reset, I sent them my firmware versions etc. It was determined that I should send the unit in for diagnosis. I did that in October. Since I live close by, I personally took it to their engineers. They diagnosed the unit and could not find a problem. However, they changed out the internal GPS and other internals just to see if this resolves the problem. Unfortunately I’m still on the hard and cannot test the unit for another few weeks.
For those of you who have access to your boat (yes, I’m quite jealous) and are experiencing these symptoms I would *urge* you to contact your Dealer (or whomever installed your electronics) and definitely register your issue with RM. These are very expensive units and should work as advertised.
Do NOT let anyone tell you that the problem may be caused by your bimini! This was suggested early on, but I spoke with some senior RM techs and they comfirmed that this is simply not the case. Additionally, you may be encouraged to install an external antenna. However at the cost of $300+ installation, this may not resolve anything because chances are the antenna will still be under your canvas. A Chartplotter at the binnacle of a sailboat provides as good a location as any for a GPS antenna.
Sorry for the long winded message, but this is one issue that I would really like to see get resolved.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Brad Sclar added: I just talked to Raymarine live as well as submitting a support ticket on the GPS fix issue. The tech I talked to candidly admitted that other customers had the same complaints and that currently a possible fix is to deploy an external NMEA-ready GPS unit, such as the Raystar 125 Plus ($350) and disable the internal GPS on the C90W via menu settings.
The tech did tell me that the bimini, in addition to any other obstruction of the sky, could be the problem (thanks for the heads up, Jon), and I responded by saying that in a top of the line piece of electronic equipment, which the C90W is purported to be, that was not a satisfactory response. He more or less responded by saying “I’m sorry you feel that way, sir.”
Garmin sells a similar external NMEA GPS unit, the GPS 17x for $219, which is a considerable savings.
I expect the same response on the submitted ticket and will share that with y’all when it comes out. I believe that getting an external GPS unit will end up being the answer to this particular problem, and that if you’re going to be doing some sailing that will make heavy demands of the internal GPS you’d be well served to get an external unit.
Welcome to boat ownership! as they told me when faced with no alternative but to buy a $250 50W to two 25W converter for the dock pedestal.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Jon: Brad, Thanks for following up on this! There is quite a bit more information that I didn’t share as my already lengthy note would have been worse! So I’ll share these items as they are brought up.
As for the bimini—I went to the Newport Boat Show last fall and spoke with a RM tech (not the sales guy) and mentioned that the bimini obstruction was being used as an excuse. He brought me over to a C90 and showed me the active satellites. He said it was being run from the internal antenna and we were in a corrugated metal building! He said if we can get this strong of a signal in this building, then a bimini isn’t going to be the culprit. So that is where I got the rebuttal to this argument everytime I have heard it….seeing is believing…
As you said, for such a high end chartplotter that has a selling point of an internal GPS, a piece of Sunbrella shouldn’t factor in. The Garmin’s certainly don’t have this problem (had one on my last boat).
As for the external antenna, my reluctance to this suggestion is will we be throwing good money after bad. Unfortunately the installation is quite involved because of the size of the fittings. Getting those up through the binnacle will be a painful boat project—and what if that isn’t the fix??
If it is a software problem (likely) then the clock is ticking since these are already being replaced by the newer models and RM has never been good about keeping old equipment up to date as far as firmware…
I haven’t spoken with a 355 owner yet who doesn’t have this problem (if you’re out there, please let us know), and as you said this becomes a dangerous issue in certain situations…if I didn’t have a boat full of RM gear and particularly Radar, the solution for me would be putting this thing on EBay and going back to a Garmin…
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From Brad: Hi Jon – you bet! Below is the web response – some interesting stuff! In other words, RM is telling us to make sure the latest software is installed, and to put a GPS sensor with an unobstructed view of the sky, and to back up your waypoints/tracks to CF, and otherwise ye walk the plank, matey!
I will ask what CF they recommend, and what size.
MFD = multifunction device.
CF = compact flash memory.
Customer By Web Form (Brad Sclar) 04/06/2012 03:00 PM
The main issue is that the C90W will lose it's GPS fix. Please advise on how to address that problem.
Thank you.
Raymarine Reply:
The currently installed version of software within the MFD is specified within the MFD's legal disclaimer which must be acknowledged each that the MFD is powered on. If not presently operating with v2.20 C-Series Widescreen MFD software (MENU->SYSTEM DIAGNOSTICS->SOFTWARE SERVICES->UNIT INFO->APP VERSION), then it is strongly recommended that the MFD's software be upgraded to v2.20, as the software release featured a software update to the MFD's internal GPS sensor. Raymarine software updates are cumulative in nature. As such, one need only install the latest software update to enjoy the new features, feature enhancements, and feature modifications of previous software updates. Please see the FAQ at the end of this response addressing v2.20 C-Series Widescreen MFD software.
Raymarine's MFD's are designed to be easily updated using one's computer, a CF memory card reader, and a SanDisk brand CF memory card. Raymarine posts MFD software updates on its Customer Support web site ( http://www.raymarine.com/default.aspx?site=1&SECTION=3 ) and recommends that customers ensure that their products have been updated with the latest available software (http://www.raymarine.com/default.aspx?site=1&SECTION=3 ). Should one not already possess a CF memory which is compatible with one's MFD, then it is strongly recommended that the memory card be purchased, as the same CF memory card may not only be used in conjunction with any future software updates, but may also be used to back up one's waypoint/route/track data which is recommended practice to avoid accidental loss of this data.
Should the MFD presently be operating with v2.20 C-Series Widescreen MFD software, then please check whether the MFD has been installed beneath a bimini top or hard top. It is not uncommon for a bimini to cause interference with a C-Series Widescreen MFD's GPS reception. Should the installation location prevent the MFD from receiving a reliable GPS position FIX via its internal GPS sensor, then the MFD should be interface to an externally located Raystar 125 Plus GPS Sensor which would be installed in a location where it would have an unobstructed view of the skies overhead.